In the June issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Kimberley Ohayon, wine aficionado and owner of Canberra’s first pop-up wine bar, The Pop Inn. Launched earlier this year, The Pop Inn is the culmination of Kimberley’s desire to combine her love of wine, business, and the hidden treasures of the ACT’s underutilised outdoor spaces in a brand spanking new business and career.  

Tell us a bit about your career and what made you decide to branch out into the startup space?

My background is in communication and project management. I had worked for the same company for about 9 years and was fortunate to have diverse roles and experiences. I had the opportunity to take a year off without pay and spent about 8 months of that time overseas and travelling. When I came back, a few things had changed both with me and my role in the organisation. I wasn’t feeling like I was challenged and there was no obvious career path. I felt more and more that I was dreading going to work, even though I worked with some great people. 

I decided I should turn my passion and interest for wine into my career – learning about wine (and yes, drinking it!), and working with interesting people. I left my job and had about 4 months focusing on establishing The Pop Inn – it didn’t all happen as quickly as I imagined it would so I took a contracting role with the government while I continued to work on the business.

This period was quite nerve wracking (my parents were most nervous!).

It was exciting and motivating working on something I had a passion for and where every decision was my own.

I am still working in my government role and run The Pop Inn over weekends – I am really enjoying both jobs. All going well, my goal is to give away the 9-5 and focus on The Pop Inn full-time towards the end of this year.”

You launched the Pop Inn, Canberra’s first pop up wine bar, earlier this year. How did you come up with the idea and what can wine-lovers expect when they visit you?

“Canberra has so many gorgeous parks, lakes and areas that are lovely just to sit and soak in the sun all year round. I noticed that many of these spaces were under-utilised and thought that if people could relax comfortably with a glass of wine they may linger and enjoy these beautiful public places more.

The Pop Inn was designed by a local architectural firm, Daryl Jackson Alastair Swayn (DJAS Architecture), to create a modern but warm pop-up bar. Our key difference is that guests are invited into the bar to taste and experience our selection of wines.

Canberran’s have really embraced the concept. Locals love being outside and taking in the views of Lake Burley Griffin or watching the autumn leaves fall in a suburban park over a glass of wine and bite with friends.

We supply many Canberra district wines as well as wines from around Australia and the world. For us, part of the experience is sharing the story of the wines, the winemakers, the regions and the romance of the drink.

I love getting to know our regulars who can always expect a friendly and welcoming experience.”  

Many young Australians dream of starting a business but, perhaps, scary startup failure statistics or crippling self-doubt hold them back. Was there a particular moment, or past experience, that galvanised you to take the leap and launch your own startup?

“When I first started sharing my plans with others, I received a lot of ‘helpful’ advice and statistics on how hard it is to succeed in business. That, combined with many of my own self-doubts, triggered moments where I wondered if it was a mistake. At the end of the day though, I still had people around me offering encouragement and who believed in me and the business idea.

Once you gain some momentum, and start seeing progress, focus on that and just keep going.”  

What has been the hardest aspect of launching your own business? Were there any setbacks you didn’t anticipate?

“It’s funny – now I’m up and running some set-backs seem like distant memories but at the time they felt devastating. I had some real challenges throughout the build and early registration of The Pop Inn.

At times, I have felt very let down by different suppliers in the process which I didn’t anticipate. [For new startup owners] I would recommend having a contingency in terms of time and funds to address unanticipated setbacks.”

Even the best laid plans can go awry so give yourself a buffer.

How do you cope with stress (aside from opening a bottle of wine)?

“Yep, a bottle of wine and a few friends usually reduces the stress levels!

Sometimes I can get fixated on an issue and can’t focus on anything else until I know I have a solution. It can be counter-productive, particularly if I am waiting on others so I usually try and talk to someone about the issue. Sharing can help me think more clearly and takes some of the pressure off.”

How difficult was it for you to negotiate the legal aspects of starting a business – for example, registering your business name, coming up with a legal structure for your company, and obtaining approval for various locations The Pop Inn sets up each weekend around the Canberra region?

“For my business, the challenge has been navigating the many levels of government and legislative requirements, especially as there was no precedent to follow. Early engagement with relevant departments helped me build strong relationships and to work through these challenges collaboratively. The key is to be persistent and focus on solutions.

In the ACT, Access Canberra provides assistance to new businesses and helps connect them with departments they need to engage with (which can be many!). I understand that this type of service is becoming increasingly common in other states to help encourage and support new businesses.

There are resources out there to help you so make the most of them as it can save you a lot of time.

What advice would you give someone who is toying with the idea of launching a startup?

“Be prepared to work hard: it’s really easy to underestimate how much effort goes into starting up a business or enterprise.

Be resilient: there will be setbacks at times that make you question or doubt yourself but find a way to stay motivated and focus on the bigger picture.

Be prepared to pivot: my idea has continually evolved and I almost stumbled at the last hurdle. A couple of weeks before opening I was advised that I couldn’t secure some amazing sites that I had been working with government to use. I was pretty disappointed but it forced me to think outside the box in terms of locations. Some set up spots that I thought would be less than ideal have actually turned out to be extremely popular.”

What do you enjoy most about your work?

“I love talking to my customers and meeting new people. Being outdoors on a nice day really relaxes everyone and creates a great vibe for a pop-up wine bar. Families, couples and groups of friends all come to enjoy The Pop Inn so it is quite a diverse demographic but, somehow, everyone seems to fit.”

The hardest aspect of my job is researching and selecting the best wines to serve [hah!]

What music helps you hustle at your best?

“My friends and family know I am a bit of a control freak when it comes to a playlist. I have quite diverse taste in music but my classic go-to choice is pop music. Catchy tunes and upbeat melodies keep me hustling.”

What is your favourite wine at the moment and does it change depending on the season?

“It does tend to change with the seasons and right now I am loving the Italian varieties like Sangiovese and Nero D’Avola. It’s also hard to go past a glass of champagne.”

Find out where The Pop Inn is popping up next on their website or by following The Pop Inn on Facebook or Instagram.

BucketOrange Magazine / June 2017 

I
n the April issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Thomas Eckardt, Managing Director of Sydney-based legal, finance and IT recruitment agency, Eckardt Guanlao Consulting, and its recently-launched limb, Young Lawyer Advisory. We talk career tips for law graduates, the importance of goal-setting and what it means to re-define ‘success.’ 

What made you decide to pursue law as a career?

“I actually have a degree in human biology and psychology. After finishing, I decided that law was more interesting. I had always been interested in law and after speaking with a career advisor I decided to apply.

As anyone who speaks with me during our consultation sessions will know, I talk about ‘telling your story’ all the time. Everyone has an interesting story to tell, we just need to bring it out. When you study law, especially in the UK, everything is about case law and interesting stories. That is what got me interested and started on the lawyer route. It was a short-lived professional choice for me.

Although that first career advisor was right to guide me down the legal path, they were not clear in pointing out what that would mean professionally or what other options I should be aware of. This meant that I made some decisions that ended with me working in an area that I didn’t enjoy. The experience did, however, get me interested in recruitment and particularly the ability to help junior lawyers make informed decisions about their careers.”

What is Young Lawyer Advisory?

“Young Lawyer Advisory helps law students and young lawyers achieve success. We help with resume writing, cover letter drafting, application review and mentoring. Our key area of expertise is providing a consultation to help your lawyers plan their career and build experience.
The consultation is a one-on-one session where we go over everything. For example, what you have done, what you want to do, whether there are gaps in your resume and how to fill in those gaps. We have designed our packages to suit all levels of need from simple review to application help. I believe that there is real value in booking a consultation. Our advisors have been through it all before and can offer real guidance and value.

We also help connect law students with graduate roles and make recommendations to our clients. We work closely with most large firms and in-house companies.”

What I am really passionate about is helping students to understand what they are getting into and then defining success. There are so many options for graduates and so much competition for placements. Career success does not have to mean working for the biggest law firm in the world.

What do you enjoy best about your work?

“I like meeting new people, especially law students and young lawyers who are just starting out. There are so many options available to them and they are about to have an incredible career. They just need to get started.

I really enjoy helping young people take that first step.”

The recent NSW Law Society FLIP report highlighted the need for greater mental health awareness and support for lawyers amid rapid innovation and changes happening in the legal industry right now. In your experience, particularly coming from a psychology and legal background, how important is it for young lawyers to be conscious of, and proactively manage, their mental health while working in a notoriously stressful industry like law?

“It’s great to see the legal industry become more supportive of mental health.

I know what it’s like both personally and through working with many junior lawyers professionally. When you first get into practice, you want to make a good impression. There is the feeling that you have to work all hours and keep your struggles hidden.

Some effective core strategies I’ve learned: 1) Speak to people – find a mentor, a friend, a confidant (ideally many) who you can speak with about your career, your struggles and your stress; 2) Find an outlet away from work – have a passion outside work that engages you fully. This helps give your life some balance; 3) Take some time for yourself – law is notoriously intense and very mentally challenging at times. You need to find some time each day to sit and be with yourself (believe it or not but meditation for 5 minutes genuinely helps).”

Many media reports emphasise the need for grads to now develop a broader range of skills, including tech and business skills in order to stay competitive. In your view, do these types of skills make an applicant more attractive and employable?

“In short, yes. I see so many amazing graduate resumes each day and the ones that stand out are the ones that are formatted correctly and have something more to offer outside just their academic qualifications.

It’s also important to remember that most private law firms and companies are businesses. The service that they offer is law. Any knowledge of how a business operates is going to be an advantage as you progress through your career.

Technology is rapidly changing the face of the legal industry. Every day there is a new article about a new legal technology disruptor that has entered the market. Students with an interest in working in a smaller disruptor, or an evolving business, need to stay in front of the curve.”

How important do you think it is for young lawyers to try to maintain a work/life balance? Is it something you have been able to achieve in your career? If so, how do you do it?

“I believe that a work/life balance is vital for junior lawyers and it is something that most tend to ignore. If the ‘life’ section of work/life gets ignored there is a high chance a junior lawyer will burn out and end up leaving the profession.

It’s also important to define what people mean by a work/life balance.

As a lawyer you are, more than likely, going to work incredibly hard in your legal career. The hours can be long. The pressure can be huge. As a junior, this will be especially true as you struggle to learn all that you need and to gain as much experience as possible.

That said, I believe that we should change the definition of work/life balance. If you are working at something that you love then it doesn’t feel like work. If you are working in a team that you love then it doesn’t feel like work. This contributes to achieving your work/life balance.”

What is one piece of advice you would give to a young lawyer starting their career?

“Be sure about what you want to achieve from your career and have a goal. Having a long term goal will make the long hours and hard work seem easier.”

What are some of the most common mistakes law graduates make when entering the job market? 

“One of my pet hates is a cover letter that just re-tells the CV. Why are you submitting two documents that say the same thing?!

This shows that you are inefficient, have nothing more to say and don’t know how to draft a letter. It’s a simple thing to get right but is so often done incorrectly.

CV drafting is also poor, generally. This isn’t surprising as most law graduates would never have had to draft a professional CV before. Interviewing skills is also a minefield of mistakes. But, as always, practice makes perfect.”

What has been the hardest aspect of launching your own business?

“Time. In any given day, you have 28 hours worth of activities to perform. Making that work is a challenge.”

What has been your greatest achievement?

“Helping our first set of students find roles and talking to them about careers. It was amazing to see the process work and get initial great feedback.”

Who, or what, inspires or drives you?

“I am fortunate to meet and work with some very inspirational people who want to do well in their career. They inspire me on a daily basis to do better for them.”

What is your ultimate dream that you would like to achieve through your work?

“Ultimately, if we can help educate and guide law students across the world in what is possible for them in their legal career then I would be happy.”

Where do you see yourself, or your business, in 5 years?

“I want to be able to help students move into roles on a global scale. Within 5 years, I would like to be able to help law students from Australia move to a position in London, or New York, and vice versa.”

Do you have a favourite expression, saying or philosophy?

“‘Everything will be ok in the end, if it’s not ok, then it’s not the end.’

I also heard this one from my girlfriend which I love in a work context:

‘Not my circus, not my monkeys.’”

What is the best piece of advice you have ever been given?

“Don’t be a dickhead. People generally want to like you, don’t give them an excuse not to.”

What helps you work at your best?

“Activities. I have a weird desire to do hard long distance events. I regularly do triathlons, and last year I did my first Ironman event. This year I competed an uphill triathlon event at Mt Kosciuszko and I am signed up to do the North Face 50 trail run soon as well as the New Zealand Coast to Coast next year.

I find having something to worry about outside of work tends to help me work better.”

What is your favourite legal series or movie?

“Suits – I love how unlike an actual law firm it is. I also loved a show called ‘Boston Legal’ although I watched that while going through law school in the UK.”

BucketOrange Magazine / April 2017 

In the March issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Chaman Sidhu, general counsel at Xero. When it comes to legal careers, she’s enjoyed one of the most fascinating and diverse. Having earned an LL.B at the University of Queensland, an LL.M at New York University and worked as a justice’s associate at the Supreme Court of Queensland, her early career in corporate law included roles at Allens in Australia and Kirkland Ellis in the U.S. As a general counsel, she’s represented some of the most well-regarded and forward-thinking companies in the Southern Hemisphere, including Lonely Planet and Envato. In her current role at Xero, Chaman also works with the board as corporate secretary. We caught up with her to find out a bit more about her experiences and insights as a female leader in the legal industry and her advice for young lawyers. 

Can you tell us a bit about your background and what made you decide to study law?

I’ve had a love for words since middle high school, which is what drew me to the law, but then I found a path more in the business and tech space. I was fortunate to have a strong female role model in my mother, who was the first female Sikh to graduate from a Malaysian university. Her example helped me shape my own career aspirations.  

You have had an interesting career. Did you expect to have such an enviable career path?

I had originally envisioned myself in a legal advocacy role, in a courtroom. What I discovered after finishing law school was that I preferred something far more collaborative and relationship-building than the litigation process. And that led me to this path, which I hadn’t at all expected but love. The role of general counsel, which I’ve held for over 15 years at several companies, has been an excellent fit. Xero was a business I had been following with great interest in terms of both its culture and values, and what it does for small business. It was a natural development from Envato, which also does great things for small business, in the creative online space. The Xero role was a dream job, really, and spoke to my passion for working for companies with a mission I can really believe in.

Did you have a mentor during your early legal career? If so, did you find it to be a valuable experience and would you recommend that recent graduates seek guidance and collegiality from a more experienced colleague they respect and admire?

For young lawyers, building a network of mentors is key for success. I actually didn’t act on this common advice until well into my career, but learned and grew by working with some amazing leaders and colleagues. It’s never too late to start searching for mentors. I’ve become passionate about mentoring younger lawyers through the Association of Corporate Counsel here in Australia.

The first reported study into depression in the Australian legal community ‘Courting the Blues: Attitudes towards depression in Australian law students and legal practitioners,’ published in 2009 by the Brain & Mind Research Institute of the University of Sydney, revealed a high level of psychological distress and risk of depression in law students and practising lawyers when compared with Australian community norms and other tertiary student groups. How important is it to develop healthy long-term wellness strategies and to cultivate support networks when working in the law, especially as a woman?

It’s incredibly important to have wellness strategies and the right networks. It’s something I can improve on, even after making it a personal focus in the last decade of my career. My biggest tip is to not try to do it all yourself. Get support to step back and take the time to find the way to step off of what can sometimes feel like a mouse-wheel. A big factor is learning how to balance our professional service mindset as lawyers (meeting the needs of others) with our own needs and well-being.

Having a supportive work culture is important too. Realistically, you’re going to spend a large portion of your time at the office, so finding a place that champions your team’s well-being and provides support can be a major factor in finding mental balance and helping you do your best work.

What has been your greatest achievement to date?

One of the things I’m most proud of is having led global legal functions out of Australia and New Zealand for companies that are punching above their weight. I’m also honoured to be working with so many distinguished, innovative people on Xero’s board including co-founder Rod Drury.

Who, or what, inspires or drives you?

My team! Among many things, the Xero Legal team successfully negotiates with huge players on a worldwide scale, while living and breathing the values of our company — and that’s championing small businesses and bridging the gap between them and their accountants and bookkeepers so that they can really succeed.

What music helps you lawyer at your best?

To get a sense of my musical tastes, have a look at the lineup for the WOMAdelaide festival! It’s an annual world music festival in Adelaide, and I’m looking forward to it. There’s just an amazingly inclusive vibe, a kids’ zone and lots of great music. It’s my happy place.

What is your favourite law hack or life hack at the moment? 

If you’re a small business, there are now great options to get quick, affordable legal advice through different platforms connecting small business and individuals with lawyers. It’s an option to get started when you’re launching, running and growing a business. And know your rights as a small business when dealing with larger players.

BucketOrange Magazine / March 2017 

In the February issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Shaun Miller – Melbourne-based veteran entertainment lawyer and film aficionado to talk about running a solo practice, his best law hacks for musicians and how he accidentally fell into a dream career.

Can you tell us a bit about your background and why you wanted to become a lawyer …?

“I am Melbourne born and bred.  I wanted to be a lawyer from about the age of 12 even though, as it turned out, I had no idea what the day-to-day working life was to be a lawyer in Australia.  Maybe I made the mistake of watching too many episodes of LA Law in the 1980s! 

I got the marks to get into law school at Melbourne University and so that’s where my legal career began.  Even though I loved the arts, I made the conservative decision to combine my law degree with a commerce degree.”

You have over 15 years of experience in film and entertainment law. Did you always want to run your own entertainment law firm, or is it something you stumbled into?

“Life unfolds in unpredictable and often surprising ways.  But then again, I like to think that ‘a compass will always find its true north!’  

Previously, I was a partner in a city-based law firm in its Media Department.  I then took that experience (and my clients!) as well as my love of the film industry and my business knowledge from my commerce degree and, hey presto, I found myself running a sole practice law firm specialising in film and entertainment law.  Even though I stumbled into running my own law firm, on reflection, I was actually always heading that direction.

Who does Shaun Miller Lawyers cater to …?

“Shaun Miller Lawyers predominantly acts for production companies that make feature films, television series, documentaries, shorts, animations and web series.  Generally, I do not act for writers, actors or directors because they tend to be represented by talent agents (as opposed to lawyers). 

My point of difference is that I charge clients on the basis of ‘value and expertise’ as opposed to ‘time based billing.’  That way, I am able to give a fixed quote for the legal work from the get-go and there are no hidden surprises for the client.  I’ve found that ‘time based billing’ encourages lawyers to work slowly and inefficiently in order to rack up legal fees, and that’s not fair to the client. 

My other point of difference is that I don’t charge separately for mobile phone call charges, printing documents or photo copying.  Those charges are all included in the fixed fee. 

My ultimate point of difference is that I belong to ‘AA’, which means ‘Always Available’ – clients can ring me or e-mail me at any time of the day or night and chances are I will respond immediately.”

What has been your favourite project to work on and why?

“My favourite project to work on turned out to be the short animation by Adam Elliot called Harvie Krumpet.  The film ended up winning the Academy Award for best short animation in 2004 and so it always has a very special place in the list of projects that I have worked on over the years.”

What is the hardest aspect of running a sole practice law firm?

“That there is no one to delegate work to. It all falls on me. But that suits me because I am in complete control of the legal work for the projects that I am working on.”

What has been your proudest achievement …?

“My proudest achievement is going to the film festival premieres or cast and crew screenings of the films that I have done the ‘legals’ on and feeling that I played a small role in getting the film made.  Seeing my name in the end credits always gives my ego a bit of a boost as well.”  

In your experience, do you think more young and creatively-minded lawyers would find fulfilment in pursuing a career in entertainment law? If so, what is one piece of advice you would give someone who is looking to get into the entertainment law industry?

“If you have a creative-bent, it is always going to be more fulfilling working with people in the creative arts than working with the ‘corporate suit’ types. My advice to a young person wanting to get into the entertainment law industry would be to get some direct experience in the film or television industry, for example, by doing some short filmmaking courses or working on a film set (even if it’s just as a runner or helping out with the catering) or working for a local film festival (even if it’s just as a volunteer).”

That way, you have a much better understanding of the ‘language’ of your clients (industry lingo). It will help the film contracts that you end up working on make more sense.”

What is your ultimate dream that you would like to achieve through your work?

“I don’t have an ‘ultimate dream’ that I want to achieve through my work other than to help my filmmaking clients get their films onto big and small screen by making sure all of the contracts on the film are drafted correctly in order to avoid disputes down the track.  As I’m doing that already, I guess that’s my ‘ultimate reality’”.

Do you have a favourite expression, saying or philosophy?

“One of my favourite expressions is: ‘If you want to stand out, then don’t fit in!’ – in other words, you should celebrate what makes you different and tread your own path.

Another favourite expression is: ‘I work well in a team, as long as I am the only person in the team!’ – in other words, I want to keep my law firm as a sole practice law firm.”

You can learn a lot about a person by knowing their taste in music. Do you listen to music while working or to get fired up before going to court? If so, what artists or albums help you to lawyer at your best?

“I love listening to music while I’m working.  I have very eclectic taste – the music I listen to depends on my mood and what I am working on.  But if I really want to get motivated, nothing beats the Bob Marley song with the lyrics: ‘Get up, stand up, Stand up for your rights. Get up, stand up, Don’t give up the fight.’”

Do you have a favourite legal series or movie?

“In the 1980s and 1990s it was LA Law. In the 2000s it was Boston Legal and in the 2010 it’s The Good Wife.”

We have been featuring a PopLaw series on copyright protection for musicians. In your experience representing Australian musicians, what is one law hack that every musician should know?

“If you think something is worth stealing, then someone will think it’s worth protecting. 

Even if you only steal a 10 second riff from another song to include in your song, the copyright owner of the original song will probably bring legal action against you for breach of copyright. Just ask Men at Work who were sued for including the riff from ‘Kookaburra Sits in the Old Gum Tree’ in their famous track ‘Down Under!’”

“Where there’s a hit, there’s a writ. 

In other words, musicians are much more likely to be sued for alleged breach of copyright if their song is a big hit. Funny that!” 

BucketOrange Magazine / February 2017.

In the December Issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we chat with Anne Marie Cade – founder of award-winning online divorce platform DivorceRight – about her love of law, technology and a holistic approach to separation in Australia. 

Can you tell us about your professional journey and your reason for pursuing law?

“I was encouraged to pursue a career in law by my cousin who was a Professor at Yale University and who I greatly admired. I had an opinion about everything and was very argumentative, so he thought I would make a good lawyer! I also wanted to make a difference. As Martin Luther King Jr. said ‘our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.’

I moved to Melbourne in 2003 after practising law in Sri Lanka for over 10 years.

I started my legal practice, Le Mercier Legal & Conveyancing, in 2006 at my living room table. I had a 3- year-old baby and two older children in primary school and wanted to work around my young family.

I was working primarily in Conveyancing and Wills & Probate, and moved my practice online around 2014. I was constantly hearing clients complain about the high cost of legal fees in family law matters as well as how frustrating the whole process is.

There are lengthy delays, and the adversarial process doesn’t seem to work for most families.

They end up fighting in court for extended periods, spend heaps of money on lawyers and never get the settlement they were hoping to reach in the first place.

I had been thinking that there must be a better way to deal with divorce and separation, which is why I decided to launch the platform DivorceRight.

I run the platform myself and connect families with mediators, lawyers, accountants, counsellors and psychologists as divorce is not just a legal issue but has financial and emotional implications as well.

My aim is to shift the focus of divorce from legal wrangling to a healing process where a settlement and resolution can be reached through consultation and mediation for a fixed cost.

Marriage does not begin with lawyers and the court system, so there is no reason for it to end that way.

Divorce is not all about the paperwork. It’s about a major life transition and I want to make a difference by demystifying legal services and making them more accessible to clients who have been previously unable to find legal help.”

What are your experiences with Australians accessing lawyers – is it something most people are willing and happy to do, or is there a bit of reluctance? 

“Australians are very apprehensive about seeing a lawyer primarily because of the cost.

They associate lawyers with hefty fees, and they are not far from the truth. There are so many Australians who are unable to access legal services because of the cost of legal fees. Especially in the area of family law, some practitioners are notorious for letting a family law matter unnecessarily drag on instead of exploring options with their clients with the aim of settling the matter as soon as possible. It is hard to think of a reason for such an approach other than the desire to drive up the fees.

So there is a real need for more cost-effective legal solutions that are of a high quality.

Some say that divorce is a far too complicated legal and emotional process to be conducted online, but I believe my approach removes the barriers people often experience when looking to access legal services delivered traditionally, like high costs or feeling intimidated working with lawyers face-to-face.”

What led you into entrepreneurship? Is it something you always wanted to do, or did you stumble into it?

“I am always looking for solutions and how to do things differently. I look for ways to make things better and to create products or services that make the world a better place. Learning interests me and I am never satisfied with my current knowledge.”

Was there a specific moment that inspired you to found DivorceRight? How does it work and how is it different?

“The idea for the platform came from watching families tear themselves apart during the divorce process. The court process and the traditional adversarial approach does little to help families heal and sometimes makes their problems worse.

No matter what the status of a relationship with an ex-partner, if couples have children they will always be parents together which is why I believe that a different approach to divorce is so necessary.

My startup handles as much of the divorce process as possible online – clients can lodge forms and interact with each other and their lawyers and mediators through an online client portal. When face-to-face meetings are required, they’re conducted in designated meeting rooms at a location convenient to both clients.

After making initial contact online, clients are sent a questionnaire they can fill out online. Based on the responses, clients are guided step-by-step through the process with as much or as little help as they need. When necessary, we’ll connect clients with a wider team of legal professionals, mediators, counsellors, accountants, financial planners to help them untangle even their biggest life challenges.

Once a settlement is reached, they’re referred to individual lawyers so they can receive independent legal advice and file their divorce papers.

Paperwork associated with each step of the process is filed on the platform. They are also able to send and receive messages, see notifications, view their case status, schedule conferences, and pay bills. The platform also encourages the use of Skype and video conferencing.

From the outset, clients are a given a costs agreement which outlines the process and how much it will cost.”

DivorceRight is an online legal platform. Does this mean that residents of any State and Territory can access your legal services?

“Yes, it is accessible in any state and territory.”

What do you enjoy best about your work?

“I enjoy using my legal skills to help people in the most efficient and effective way possible. My aim is to empower people to begin their lives after separation with less conflict, in less time, and for less money than a conventional divorce.”

What has been your greatest achievement?

“Being able to launch my legal startup with the aim of making a difference in the way divorce is done in this country, and I am inspired by the response and acceptance I have received to my approach in such a short space of time. I am also encouraged by the fact that I won in the individual category of the 2016 LexisNexis Legal Innovation Index for my approach to making the divorce process more amicable, easier, smoother and kinder using web-based technology to automate paperwork and engage a community of professionals.”

Who, or what, inspires you?

My two maternal aunts who brought me up as my mum passed away when I was only 1 ½ years old.

They were strong determined women who taught me that I can achieve anything I want to if I work hard and set my mind on it. I am eternally grateful for the strong work ethic they instilled in me from a young age.

Do you ever feel overwhelmed? If so, how do you deal with it?

“Yes, I do. Sometimes I feel that maybe I have bitten off more than I can chew. But when I feel like this, I take a step back, take a deep breath and keep going! I am also a gym junkie so whatever happens I make sure I do at least 5 classes at the gym every week. It’s a great stress buster.”

What is your ultimate dream that you would like to achieve through your work?

“I hope to take my ‘do divorce differently’ concept Australia wide and for my unique approach to be way divorce is done in the future.”

What is the best piece of advice you have ever been given?

“Work hard and you can make your dream a reality.”

Why do you love the law?

“I love that being a lawyer gives me the opportunity to make a difference in people’s lives. Most of the people I meet are angry or upset because their marriages have come to an end. I do my best to help those whose anger has eclipsed reasoning to understand that there is alternative approach through mediation which will often give them a better outcome.”

What music helps you to lawyer at your best?

“I love all types of music, but particularly RnB, and often have some music playing in the background when I work at night.”

What is your favourite legal series?

“L.A. Law. I was literally hooked and binged on the entire series.”

What is your favourite life hack at the moment?

“Cloud computing is amazing. I store everything in the cloud, so it’s accessible wherever I am.”

BucketOrange Magazine / December 2016.

In the November issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Demetrio Zema – serial entrepreneur, lawyer and founder of the ‘new-gen’ law firm, Law Squared. Having founded and co-founded six businesses, worked with corporates, SMEs, entrepreneurs and ASX companies, Demetrio had the idea to use his first hand experience of the challenges and opportunities facing young Australian entrepreneurs to found a forward-thinking firm dedicated to helping millennial entrepreneurs and small to medium startup owners succeed. Since its launch in February 2016, Demetrio’s meteoric rise has seen him take out prestigious industry awards such as the 2016 LexisNexis Legal Innovation Index, with his new firm described by the Huffington Post as “Australia’s most innovative law firm.” It’s an intimidating list of achievements. So how has he done it? We unpeel some of the mystery in this month’s feature interview.

Can you tell us a bit about your background and what made you decide to pursue law as a career? 

“To be honest, I never wanted to be a lawyer. In fact, I initially wanted to pursue a career in diplomacy. A Bachelor of International Relations is what I needed but, in the interests of broadening my knowledge, thought that a law degree might come in handy too. I studied a double degree in Law/International Relations at Latrobe University and participated in a 4-month internship at the Australian Embassy to the Holy See in Rome after graduation. I completed my Practical Legal Training at the Leo Cussen Centre for Law and was offered a position as an insurance litigator at a prominent mid-tier firm. After a couple of years, I moved on to another mid-tier firm as an Associate in their Commercial Litigation Team. While I am undoubtedly grateful for the experience I gained during my time in the traditional world of the law, I recognised that in times that are dominated by millennial clients and controlled by technology, the legal industry was, and remains, frozen in time. Email and instant messaging are key aspects our daily lives but law firms, lamentably, remain ‘stuck’ in the traditional mechanics of client engagement. A traditional law firm, with its dictaphones, typists and word processing pools sits awkwardly in today’s modern world of fintech and millennial businesses that want and need their lawyers to be present, adaptable, relevant and, of course, personable. I established Law Squared earlier this year – a firm that I hope will offer millennials, entrepreneurs and SMEs services that traditional firms are, simply by their very nature, unable to offer.” 

Was there a clear moment that shaped your decision to found your own ‘new-gen’ law firm? 

“My dream job throughout much of my younger years was to work for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (DFAT). However, a passion for business was instilled in me through my family’s involvement in business. This passion led me to participate in the Melbourne start-up and entrepreneur scene soon after I finished high-school, which in turn led me to start my first business at 21. I continued to be involved in the entrepreneurial scene, while studying law at university. It was during this time that I realised there was a gap in the legal market with respect to the provision of legal services to entrepreneurs. 

After a few years working as a lawyer, I thought that maybe I could fill this gap by blending my entrepreneurial and legal skills to create a law firm dedicated to assisting entrepreneurs, and changing the way entrepreneurs and businesses engage with lawyers. Sure, there are a number of ‘new-gen’ law firms and ‘law tech’ platforms out there. However, the former type generally don’t span beyond one or two people and the latter type offers a vastly different service to what Law Squared offers. Through conversations with friends working in traditional firms, I was also made aware of the job dissatisfaction epidemic affecting so many young lawyers. I was motivated to create a firm that could not only provide a holistic service to budding and established entrepreneurs but also offer a nurturing environment for young lawyers.”

Who does Law Squared cater to and what is your point of difference?

“Law Squared is driven by outcomes and success. It is a firm for serial entrepreneurs and SME business directors looking for a law firm they can trust. This is one of our main points of difference. We are also dedicated to providing multi-dimensional and holistic services to our unique clientele – our approach is not the ‘cookie-cutter’ kind. Instead, we provide a quasi-partnership to our clients. We aim to provide an authentic way for clients to engage with lawyers. We seek to achieve this by working closely with, and as part of, our clients’ teams. We provide strategic advice and proactively manage daily legal requirements. Our commitment to partnering with entrepreneurs and SMEs is not limited to our current clients.  We extend this commitment to the wider-public by hosting free events that range from ‘social events’ to ‘legal seminars.’” 

What do you enjoy best about your work?

“I’m a big believer in mentorship and ensuring that young lawyers are well-supported from the start of their careers. I make it a top priority to ensure that my team is happy and are in a positive work environment. One of the greatest aspects of my job is to mentor and support my team members and watch them grow, both individually and collectively.”

What has been the hardest aspect of launching your own firm?

“The greatest challenge has, without a doubt, been time management. With a number of projects on the go, along with a rapidly expanding team and client base, time management has been critical and, unfortunately, the hardest hurdle to overcome prior to and after the launch of Law Squared. I try my best to overcome this challenge by prioritising my team and ensuring that they are as well-supported as needed which, in turn, equips them to support our clients in achieving their desired outcomes.”

What has been your greatest achievement?

“Witnessing my vision come to fruition and take off in such a short space of time. Although Law Squared is less than one year [old], we are in an exponential growth stage. Our firm now employs nine people and we are set to increase by another three team members by end of November 2016. Our growth and rapid expansion is a testament to the trust our clients have in us and the success of our service delivery model.”

Who, or what, inspires you?

“I’m inspired by entrepreneurs. Every day I am fortunate to meet with entrepreneurs who are disrupting an industry, creating a new business, or an opportunity for others. Risk-taking is almost synonymous with entrepreneurship, and being an entrepreneur often means that someone has sacrificed a steady pay check, personal capital and used immense passion to create change and opportunity. Those who are propelling change in their industries and who are determined to make a difference are a great source of inspiration to me.”

What do you think makes a good leader?

“A good leader must create and maintain company culture, be a symbol of moral unity and live the values that hold a company together. Most importantly, a good leader is responsible for conceiving and articulating the goals that lift people out of their preoccupations to carry them above the conflicts that tear company culture apart, and unite them in the pursuit of objectives that are worthy of their best efforts.” 

What is your ultimate dream that you would like to achieve through your work?

“My ultimate dream is for Law Squared to be the catalyst for changing the way entrepreneurs and directors engage, and work with, lawyers.  We’ve all heard horrendous jokes about lawyers and, more often than not, when we introduce ourselves as lawyers we are pre-judged by a reputation that years of tradition has bestowed upon us. Most businesses or corporates find themselves engaging a lawyer as a last resort, usually when a dispute has reached a critical point. The notion of engaging a lawyer as a last resort is largely due to the reputation traditional lawyers have. Now we are at a time when small businesses are driving the economy and the traditional law firm model is not doing any favours for small businesses. Law Squared has eliminated inefficiencies like hierarchies, charging by time and measuring our peers or the firm’s success based on money, rather than outcomes.

If we can be responsible for a change in conversation about lawyers, then my dream will have become a reality.

You started your first business at 21, have several years of experience working as a commercial lawyer, are actively engaged with the non-profit sector and also divide your time between Melbourne and Sydney. With so many professional commitments, do you have time to maintain interests outside work?

“Well … I sleep little. I find that rising early each day for a run or gym work out is critical to my ultimate mindset and keeps me professionally and personally focused. It also gives me time to see friends or colleagues for early morning meetings so that I can spend the weekends with my family and on the strategy and growth of Law Squared. When you are passionate about what you do, it becomes part of your life so that your personal and professional worlds blend.”

Where do you see yourself, or your business, in five years?

“Such a difficult question. Twelve months ago I wouldn’t have thought I would be where I am today – and yet here I am. I hope in five years to find myself, and my business, in a positive and healthy state with growing teams in Melbourne and Sydney.”

Do you have a favourite expression, saying or philosophy?

“Where do I start?! I think I can break it down to three. Firstly, concern yourself not with what you’ve failed in, but what is still possible for you to do. Secondly, (as clichéd as it sounds) you must love and be happy in what you do. You can get paid the best money with fantastic perks, however, if you are not truly happy, then do something about it. Thirdly, ‘Here we go!’”

What music helps you lawyer at your best?

“I enjoy commercial house and electronic dance music. While it might not seem like the best type of music to help you focus, it’s the genre that keeps me most upbeat and my concentration levels highest. According to my team, I am a terrible singer (and hummer), so I often absorb myself in some good tunes, particularly when focusing on a significant advice or area of litigation.”

Why do you love the law?

“I love the law because my team and I now play an active role in the day-to-day businesses of our clients. From starting-up or incorporating a company to assisting in a capital raise or large acquisition, we play a vital role in the lives and businesses of our clients. Achieving these outcomes is what makes me love the law.”

What is your favourite legal series or movie?

“During university I watched the entire series of Boston Legal. I loved Denny Crane and was misguided to think that law firms actually operated this way. Ending the day with whiskey and a cigar is common practice … isn’t it?! [laughs].” 

What is the best piece of advice you have ever been given?

“The best advice I have received came from my dad. Unfortunately, in July this year he passed away. Since his passing, I have spent a lot of time reflecting on the advice he often gave me. When I put together a business plan for Law Squared, I gave him a copy and asked for his thoughts. I received the plan back in a couple of hours, dripping in red ink and mark-ups. Across the top he had written ‘What is it you are trying to achieve? And why will anyone care?’ 

His advice was to learn from my mistakes, to grow from my failures and to strive to make a real difference – not for the sake of my own ambition or vanity but to enable me to reach my full potential and to help others along the way. 

He constantly reminded me to be true to what I set out to achieve and to ensure I make a positive impact. He taught me to be a leader, to believe in others and to believe in my own vision. He taught me to set myself apart from the rest – this is the best advice I have ever been given.”

What is your favourite law hack or life hack at the moment?

“Paperless – everything paperless!

Removing paper, and the clutter it creates, is my favourite life hack at the moment. As I float between Melbourne and Sydney on a weekly basis, I have slowly transitioned everything in my personal and professional life to paperless. I scan all my documents, save them on cloud computing storage and shred the document. This means that I can be anywhere in the world for personal or professional reasons and have immediate access to all my data and documents.”

What is one piece of advice you would give a young Australian who is looking to break the mould, as you have, and forge an alternative career pathway in their chosen industry?

“For those with an active mind who are looking for an alternative career pathway, having a strong mentor and leader in your workplace is critical. Many say you should work for a good company – I believe that you should work for a good leader. Having a leader whom you trust and respect, and who values you and your efforts, far exceeds the satisfaction gained from working in a ‘named’ business. We spend large amounts of our time at work and it is important to be working in an environment where you feel valued, challenged and are provided with opportunities.”

BucketOrange Magazine / November 2016

In the September Issue of BucketOrange Magazine, we catch up with Mira Stammers, founder & CEO of Melbourne-based legal startup, Legally Yours – a legal marketplace that connects clients with fixed-fee lawyers. With a string of accolades to her name, including nominations for prestigious industry awards such as the Lawyers Weekly Women In Law Awards (Thought Leader of the Year), Telstra Australian Business Women’s Awards, as well as recent recognition among the top 8 women in Australian legal tech, we find out just what it takes to make a legal trailblazer. 

Can you tell us a bit about your career trajectory and what made you decide to pursue law?

“In high school I always had an interest in psychology and legal studies, so I applied to La Trobe University to study Behavioural Science.  I completed my degree in Behavioural Science and a Postgraduate Diploma in Applied Psychology. I had a research supervisor who was a psychologist and a lawyer and the combination of specialities interested me, particularly in relation to forensic psychology and criminal law.

At the same time I was accepted into a Doctorate of Psychology I was also accepted into law, and made the decision to study law to see if I enjoyed it more than psychology. It turns out that I loved the study of law and felt my psychology background would give me a unique edge when it came to working with clients.

It’s funny about your goals when you start studying law. I always thought I’d end up a criminal barrister, or perhaps a family lawyer.  Turns out I loved corporate law and ended up specialising in banking law after completing a rotation in my articles year and enjoying it thoroughly.

That experience put me in good stead for an international move and, shortly after qualifying, I moved to London where I worked as a banking lawyer for almost five years at an international firm. The firm was quite progressive and post GFC had to be savvy in terms of maintaining their client base. We provided fixed fee quotes on all matters, even those where the assets being acquired ran into several hundred million pounds. On returning to Melbourne I noticed that firms were not offering fixed fees, and so clients were not receiving any form of price certainty.

Things seemed a little outdated, so I went about trying to change that.

In your early days working as a lawyer have you faced any challenges that you may not have anticipated in a traditionally male-dominated industry? How did you deal with it?

“I certainly found that I had to stand my ground and act with confidence. Banking law is more male dominated than many other areas of law, so it was important to hold my own, give as good as I got, and believe in myself.

I refused to allow people to speak over the top of me.

I made sure I worked hard and became skilled at not only the legal work, but also the marketing aspect of the job.  Early on I made the mistake of trying to ‘act like a man’ in order to gain respect. I read a book called ‘Nice Girls Don’t get the Corner Office’ and thought that if I rid myself of my feminine ways I would gain more respect. What I found was that while it worked in the short term, I wasn’t being authentic with work colleagues or my clients. As I became more confident in my abilities I realised my femininity was actually a huge strength which allowed me to build strong working relationships with colleagues and clients.”

Most lawyers tend to be naturally risk averse, so what was the catalyst that inspired you to take a leap of faith and branch out on your own by founding Legally Yours?

“I’m not really like most lawyers (at least that’s what people tell me!).

I’ve always had an entrepreneurial spirit. Banking law is very transactional and business focused so I was used to high pressure decision-making.  I loved the legal work but I was more interested in the business and marketing aspects of my job, so founding a company felt like a natural progression.

When you’re building a new business model, particularly in a conservative industry that has been slow to embrace change, there can be a tendency for some “scepticism of the new” to creep in. What are your experiences with this, and have you found that you have had to work hard to establish your credibility and reputation?

I think the scepticism is a reflection of the greed thats rife throughout the profession.

“I have found that many lawyers are not open to change if (a) they don’t know how to change, and (b) it may risk not making as much money.

There is certainty in hourly rates.  It certainly works for lawyers, but it doesn’t work for clients … and shouldn’t clients be the focus?  I feel there is an eternal conflict with hourly rates. The longer it takes a lawyer to complete a task, the more money they make. It doesn’t promote efficiency or value based outcomes.

I don’t feel that I have had to work extra hard to build credibility and my reputation, but I have felt that many lawyers have been scared of what these changes to legal business models may mean for them. Other lawyers are more progressive and client focused – and they embrace the change. Those are the lawyers we want to work with.”

What do you think is the biggest challenge currently facing women in law?

“I think the biggest challenge has always been the inflexible nature of working in private practice. This is reflected in the higher number of female graduates yet extremely small number of female partners.  It’s a problem that has existed for too long, and it’s incredibly frustrating.

I’ve found that there are few firms that embrace flexible work practices which, in my view, is short-sighted. The women that we have on our panel who work flexibly – whether for family or other reasons – are not only hugely talented but are also amazingly efficient with their time.  In particular, I think working mums are an under-utilised and under-valued talent pool.”

Many young lawyers are becoming frustrated with the strictures of traditional legal work and the slowness of some firms to uptake technology or embrace new ideas. It has been predicted by legal commentators, such as Dr George Beaton, that in the coming years many young lawyers will leave firms and launch their own legal startups. Have you found this to be the case? What is one piece of advice you would give a young lawyer who is looking to break the mould, as you have, and forge an alternative career pathway in the law?

“The majority of people on our panel are lawyers who have felt this frustration and have branched out on their own.  I would strongly encourage it once you have gained some experience and feel ready for the change.

Running your own practice, whether a law firm or a legal startup of some sort, comes with its own challenges of course. It’s important to understand what those challenges are so you can prepare for them effectively.

If you want to excel, you’ll need skills not only in law but also in business and marketing.

If you’re looking to launch a startup, it’s wise to get across the current ‘lean startup’ methodologies as it will save you a lot of time and money. There is also a great course called the Startup Leadership Program (I completed this in 2014) which helps you understand the challenges you will face when running a startup.”

What has been your biggest challenge or achievement to date?

“Challenges probably include brand awareness and understanding how to measure the effectiveness of different sales channels.

Unless you have a large marketing budget, or are very good at PR, it can be hard to get your name out there and get known for what you do. Achievements are many, small and big.

Personally I feel a great sense of achievement when we work with a lawyer relatively new to private practice and are able to help him/her build a practice on their own terms. Being a Finalist in the Women in Law Awards (Thought Leader category) was also a pretty special moment.”

Do you maintain an effective work/life balance? If so, tell us how you do it!

“I’m not a fan of the question around work/life balance because I feel it’s a question that only women get asked. What I will say is that when you launch your own business there is no work/life balance, you have to put in the long hours and the hard work if you want to establish a strong client base.

The business model you choose is also important in terms of the lifestyle you want to achieve, so put some thought into how you want to structure your business.

Consider whether you want to work virtually, whether you want to offer hours outside traditional business hours, who your ideal client is etc. The model I’ve set up has allowed me to have quite a lot of freedom and flexibility. I became pregnant two years post-launch and have been able to have maternity leave and still run a business which has been great.”

Where do you see yourself, and your business, in 5 years time?

“I think startups often pivot, so five years out can be hard to determine. At the moment we are looking at what our next move is as we are in a growth phase. We have a couple of options, but whichever one we take it will be with the view to make fixed fee legal work more accessible throughout Australia.”

What is your favourite law hack or life hack at the moment?

“Become centred before making any big work or career-related decisions. When things are unclear or confusing, I meditate. The answer comes when my mind is quiet.”

Upcoming Events

To meet Mira, and hear more about her mission to disrupt the legal industry by making legal services more accessible, transparent and affordable for all Australians, you can catch her speaking at the Nillumbik Business Network’s “Candid fireside conversation” event on 14 September at 7pm. To attend the event, register here. 

BucketOrange Magazine / September 2016